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  Ants Soosõrv's Blog
Is Taraguchi rule a big change and Yamaguchi small?2008-02-21 06:36:17
RIF General Assembly is soon coming and we have opportunity to make change in opening rules. As i am sure that we need changes quickly, i have come to decision, that even change to Yamaguchi what is not my favorite rule is better than  change nothing. This is why i was also one of authors ...
Wenzhe Lu2008-02-21 21:07:02
"Compromise" means each side needs to give up a little bit to gain common benefit. If one side insists its own and only the other side gives up, that's not a compromise. At least in a democratic system, minors need to yield to majors. Even there's a right of veto, it shouldn't be used on the same topic again and again in a specified period of time.
Ando Meritee2008-02-22 02:10:37
I wonder if there already exists a kind of "dictionary of Yamaguchi rule" that introduces all the 26 openings together with optimal number of 5th moves together with the explanation why such number of 5th moves is optimal and what happens if there is one extra 5th move (how does white win then or gain too big benefit, and using which 4th move).

Only after we see such "dictionary", perhaps then it is possible to analyse and draw further conclusions and comparisons with other rules. Until then, the rule seems rather mysterious, if we see i4 opening played together with six 5th moves.

Perhaps someone can compose such dictionary right here in the Blog system? All the necessary tools for that already exist.

I think we could all benefit from such "dictionary". What do you think?
Ants Soosõrv2008-02-22 04:46:04
About comment made by Mr. Lu. Mr. Tarannikov have said same in russian discussions. He also called "Tallinn" letter as capitulation letter. He have said that if we accept Yamaguchi rule, it will be most likely forever. I would like to point out that authors of Tallinn letter didnt mean we should agree with Yamaguchi rule without certain promises to cooperation to change them after some year.
But of course, i will be glad if we can agree something else than Yamaguchi. As player i like Mr. Tarannikov's and other Moscow players joint proposals (i dont know if Yuri have introduced them publicly?) As RIF CC member i am not so sure if we can find enough support for this plan, but i think we should try.
Btw, this Saturday 3 of 5 RIF Sport Commision members (Stefan Karlsson, Aivo Oll, me) will meet in Tallinn and one of our subjects is to discusse about procedure of our discussions and voting about opening rule in RIF GA. Ohh, my last sentence was really complicated, i hope people can understand it :)
Yuriy Tarannikov2008-02-22 16:27:59
Hi, Ants!

I do not want to write a long text as a comment (maybe I’ll write my own topic). Therefore I’ll be short.

1. There are not any reasons to accept Yamaguchi rules as the new Renju rules. These rules have low popularity, really unclear situation in i4 and other openings strong for black, non-prepared methodology how to teach beginners. These rules are not good tested, - it seems that Japanese play some tournament by Yamaguchi rules at least since 2003 but these games were not published at RIF website (whereas many games of European testing tournaments were published). I heard that these games are publishing in “Renju Sekai” with comments in Japanese language but only few players outside Japan could see and read it.
     At the same time, the reasons to accept any new rules are weak too.

2. Japanese side cannot promise anything concerning their future decisions and they will not promise it.

3. “Tallinn group” proposes to introduce Yamaguchi rules until 2011, i. e. only for three tournaments: WC 2009, TWC 2010, WC 2011. All other tournaments, in general, it is possible to play by other rules since by Chapter 1.2 of the Statuses of RIF,  “RIF observes a strict neutrality in the national affairs of the national renju organizations.” I believe that by mutual agreement of European countries it is possible to play European Championship with new rules without any special decisions.

4. But it is unreasonable to accept new rules (and to change a Renju life of many regular Renju players) only for 3 tournaments. It is possible instead of this to accept a special decision concerned only these 3 tournaments. Then after these tournaments the action time of this decision will be finished and any “promises” will not be necessary.    

Therefore, I see the next schedule plan of discussions and voting at the coming RIF GA.

1. To allow different opening rules officially (Moscow propositions). This is the most general proposition; therefore it must be discussed as the item 1.

2. To decide to cancel a voting for the best opening rules at this GA. (i. e. to keep current RIF rules or to declare current RIF as the main RIF rules if the propositions in item 1 will be accepted)

3. To decide opening rules for some nearest World Championships: for WC 2009, TWC 2010 and (probably) WC 2011.

In general, top players must finish “to sit and wait” the “decision” and must start to investigate new opening positions (not even rules but positions since some positions can appear in different new rules) much more actively. Top players must write much more papers, reviews, analyses of new positions in order to make new positions much more popular among regular Renju players. The rejection system must be used in tournaments to avoid a specialization of players on only one set of opening rules.
Ants Soosõrv2008-02-22 17:24:29
Privet Yura!

Thanks for quick answer! About your explanations - your arguments in point 1. are strong and i agree . Points 3 and 4 are more unclear, right now i surely know that Yamaguchi rule is not popular at all in Finland, not very popular in Estonia, Czech and seems not either in Russia :). Its not so easy to tell about other countries (I will be in China March 20.-Apr 1., so maybe can know more about situation there).
About p.2 - i think Japan should give some comments here.
About your proposals. I agree mainly. But what is our plan if Moscow proposals dont get enough support? Continue with RIF current rule and wait for GA 2009?
Ants Soosõrv2008-02-22 17:37:28
Privet Yura!

Thanks for quick answer! About your explanations - your arguments in point 1. are strong and i agree . Points 3 and 4 are more unclear, right now i surely know that Yamaguchi rule is not popular at all in Finland, not very popular in Estonia, Czech and seems not either in Russia :). Its not so easy to tell about other countries (I will be in China March 20.-Apr 1., so maybe can know more about situation there).
About p.2 - i think Japan should give some comments here.
About your proposals. I agree mainly. But what is our plan if Moscow proposals dont get enough support? Continue with RIF current rule and wait for GA 2009?
Yuriy Tarannikov2008-02-22 18:39:18
Ants, I believe that we must not wait anything. I believe that it is possible to play all tournaments excepting WC by other opening rules independently on decisions of GA. I remind again the Chapter 1.2 of the Statuses of RIF: “RIF observes a strict neutrality in the national affairs of the national renju organizations”. It means that nobody cannot prohibit tournaments played by other opening rules. These tournaments will not be calculated for RIF rating list but this is not very important. Of course, we must keep strictly the unity of Renju world, mainly by means of a friendship cooperation at RIF website and by publishing interesting materials here. Japanese do not write anything here, they do not publish their games (0 published games during 2007), so, in fact, they are outside of Renju world life just now. Only Mr. Okabe sometimes informs about inner Japanese decisions briefly with a significant delay and with permanent comments that he has not time to write.

WC is an important tournament now but this is only one tournament per year. If we will write interesting papers about other tournaments with comments of very interesting games by new rules then these tournaments will win additional authority and prestige instead of WC. And maybe it will be a sign for Japan to reconsider their position.
Ants Soosõrv2008-02-23 01:18:49
I believe you Yura :). Defenetly i dont want to wait. Lets hope your suggestions can get bigger support than just from Moscow and estonian players.
Norihiko Kawamura2008-03-08 14:56:33
First of all, I am pleased to find this topics, because I can read your opinions and show my opinoins.

I am sorry not  to show the game of Yamaguchi rule and not to show our opinion outside of Japan.
I think I must explain how Japanese players think renju and new rule.
I think there is a gap between Japanese(or Asian) and Euroupian mind.
Frankly speaking, our mind of rule(opening regulation) is following;
Top players:
*They have NO interest for Taranikov rule.
*They think currect rule is litte possibilities for tentative black so (may)want to change.
(if current rule continues, nobody stop renju)
*They believe Yamaguchi rule is better as next rule because that is enough.
Dan players:
*They don't know Taranikov rule.
*They don't want to change opneing rule.
*They don't recognize Yamaguchi rule essentially but can play by it.
You know Japanese and Europian are basically big difference.
So we can't shake hands foerver, I am afraid.
Even if you explain the fairness for Taraguchi rule, we can not recognize because we don't need it.(and have negative images=complicated rule)

I agree a part of  Mr.Taranikov's proposal; Own country can have own opening rule,
but I am against RIF rule has many option. RIF rule must be one rule(or +current rule).
RIF should keep current rule or introduce one new rule. And we will use veto except Yamaguchi rule as a new rule.
Yuriy Tarannikov2008-03-08 23:28:03
Mr. Kawamura, thank you for your opinion.

Some small considerations.

>Dan players:
>*They don't know Taranikov rule.

I guess that Japanese dan players read "Renju Sekai". So, I can only guess that the descriptions of new proposed opening rules were not published in "Renju Sekai".

In this respect, I have one idea. Maybe, for better communications and interactions of ideas between Japanese and European players it would be proper to reserve some space (for example, 6 pages every month) in "Renju Sekai" for translations of articles of European players on new opening rules. Some problem is who will translate these papers, Japanese players (I know that some of them are very busy and many of them are not good in English) or European players have to search translators themselves but I believe that this is a technical problem and it could be solved. I believe, in this case Japanese players will know new opening propositions better and will have more interest in it.
Norihiko Kawamura2008-03-08 23:49:22

Dan players;
*They don't know Taranikov rule

I mean, "If I teach and explain Taranikov rule, they will not understand it"
Mr. Sakata published Sakata rule long time ago, most players could not
what he wanted to say.
I easily guess many players can not understand even if I explain 100 times!
In Japan, lots of over 60 years old players enjoy renju.
Imagine they can understand it??
I think Japanese are confused by many swaps.
I think step by step way is better to pursuade them.
Aivo Oll2008-03-09 09:37:40
They do not understand Tarrannikov rule or even Sakata? That is very akward to me since in Estonia we do not have any difficulties even when we explain these rules to beginners. Especially in Tarannikov, where the beginners can just put stones by turns and really do not have to worry about swap. Explaining Yamaguchi rule is much more difficult and beginners actually have to know a lot more theory than with the current rule.
Norihiko Kawamura2008-03-10 18:20:41

Typical Japanese renju players;
*He has been playing for more than 30 years.
*Of course he has played both former Japanese opeing rule and current rule.
*He doesn't feel current rule is bad or wants to change.

Besides, Japanese tend to become aged country. Lots of old people come to play renju recently. Children are also interested in renju. Maybe young people tend to recognize even the complicated situation, however, coach is older and can not explain it at all.
Ando Meritee2008-03-13 13:02:00
Will Japan organize any serious level test tournaments of other opening rules, such as Taraguchi, etc? I think the test tournament has many good reasons:

1. it helps Japanese top players make research about the rule and understand it deeply

2. other people who see strong players using the rule, want to try it, too. It can work as an advertisement of new ideas.

3. having a result of serious test tournament, the support (if still did not change mind) to Yamaguchi's rule can have more weight, compared to current "unwillingness to understand other rules".

4. Japan could show to the world that they want to give their contribution to research, to keep the position as a leading renju country in the world. (doing the deep research on only "favorite" choice is not very objective research method)

Maybe such serious level test tournaments have been held already, but we do not know about them. It would be good if we could see the results (game records, etc) and hear the player's opinions and feelings.
Norihiko Kawamura2008-03-13 18:04:27
In Japan, some touranments had been held by other rule.
But we never tested Taranikov rule.

I think test tournament by any other rule will be possible, but it will take a long time, I am afraid.The biggest reason is probably that most players don't think they want to play other rule. They are saitisfied current rule.

Some top players want to test tornament and we held the big tournament every January by Yamaguchi rule: It is "Mikami memorial tournament". From 2003, it is played by Yamaguchi rule. (I won that tournament twice. Okabe won this year)
I believe most players were satisfied because it could be played more opening pattren.
In other district some test tournament was held by Yamaguchi rule, too. I believe they felt more fan.

I will show you some games soon.

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